A Marketplace Like No Other
Background and idea of Shopclues?
One of the best things about the team that started Shopclues is that we all came from very very diverse backgrounds. I started my career in advertising in India, then went to the US to get my MBA and worked at Goldman Sachs for a short bit, not my favourite thing to do, moved to retail very quickly, consumer is my passion, I loved the whole retail world, the fast moving inventory, just the consumer behaviour, how the consumer will behave with changing trends and I found that very very exciting, the marketing part of it, the strategy part of it, the merchandizing part of it and that particularly helped me when we moved – when we started Shopclues. And the opportunity itself was identified by another one of our co-founders who visited India and realized that India was changing very very quickly. More of our background is that we all grew up in India. Most of our work life, or really all our work life was in the US and if the same opportunity would have been there in another country, we probably would have gone there as well.
I think I completely agree with Radhika – My background was I actually graduated as a mechanical engineer and by no stretch of imagination I thought I would be actually running Shopclues. In fact, when I had graduated, I had an option to become an astrophysicist, then long story but decided not to become an astrophysicist, so then I worked in many different places and all of them were great learning experience for me. I was in a world class steel plant as a mechanical engineer making steel, and then went to the US and for many years worked for Ebay. While I was at Ebay, got to see market places all over the world. In fact, one of the most interesting thing was when I joined Ebay, Ebay had just acquired Eachnet, a company in China. In fact, Eachnet was characteristically larger than Tow Bow… It was educative experience for me, Everybody knows Tow Bow today, but very people know about Eachnet. So, learned from that and then like Radhika said one of our co-founders was visiting India, he saw India as an opportunity. From my experience, I know that India is also a great opportunity and e-commerce would be the next big thing. It is a very fundamental behavioural change. So, we latched on to it and started Shopclues.
I think the other thing also was in most of the countries online commerce mirrors offline commerce. Unfortunately when we started in 2011, or fortunately for us rather, that was not true in India. The main players looked like the malls vs. the local bazaars and the sector markets. That is not really where India shops. India is – the no. of malls might come up, but that’s not where the true India, the mass market India is shopping. Mass market India is still shopping in the local bazaars, in Sarojini Nagar, Linking Road, and those bazaars were not coming online. Our goal was to be able to build a market place which will replicate the actual offline buying behaviour of the customers. And that is how Shopclues was born.
When we started Shopclues, one thing was very clear that India has no experience with the e-commerce. Trust online was much lower than what we would see in more developed countries. The merchants have not been exposed to internet commerce, the consumers were also not exposed to internet commerce. Our belief was that for merchants to – to bring merchants online and to bring the business online, we have to do a lot of handholding of the merchants, give them the tools the technologies, enable them, empower them, so that through them, we will be able to give a great experience to our consumers. So, we said we will create the first managed market place in the country. Managed meaning we will help the merchant through the process of selling online, take responsibility of ensuring a certain level of experience both for our merchants as well our consumers. That’s how it came about.
Difference between GMV and Shopclues business model
I’ll start and maybe Radhika, you can add to it. GMV is gross merchandize value. Gross merchandize value is a notional concept when it comes to a marketplace like Shopclues. The term actually typically comes from a more inventory led model, where people are buying and selling. Companies like I would say Amazon would probably use GMV not to report the business, GMV first is a comparative term that allows you to compare a market place with a inventory based model. It is basically sum total of the gross value of the merchandize that are sold on the platform though the business makes it’s revenue from a certain percentage of the GMV that we take as our service fee. So, revenues for companies like Shopclues or Ebay or Tow Bow would be the take rate that is a percentage of the GMV that is sold. So revenue would be the take rate, GMV is the sum total of the gross merchandize value.
By take rate – it is the commission that the platform charges from the merchants. So, there are 2 kinds of revenues that we have, the take rate that Sanjay talked about. One of them is transactional. So as a merchant if I come on board and sell a cell phone for Rs.1000 and the selling commission on the platform is 10%, then I will get Rs.100, Shopclues will get Rs. 100 as the revenue. We also have some advertising opportunities and other non transactional revenue on the platform for the merchants. So they can come in and decide that I’m launching a new phone and I want to take up this particular banner on the website and then will pay us Rs. 500 more. So that goes into non transactional revenue. So, revenue is really the money that the platform makes and GMV is the sum total of the entire value of the products that are been sold on the platform.
Advantages as against inventory based model
The advantages are actually very clear. If you think about it, inventory based models would have very high capital requirement. You have to hold inventory, you have to have warehouses, it’s a very different frame of mind. It’s a different mindset altogether. I would not say one is better than the other. I think in a market, you will see inventory based models as well as market places. I think the choice that business has to make. For us it was very clear that a scalable model for India, specifically in conditions where there is a very large fragmentation of the supply base, inventory based model is not a very efficient model. It’s hard to scale, the capital requirements were very high. So, our choice was very clear. We will create an aggregation, a platform if you will, which is like a e-commerce operating system in the cloud technology led, where we will aggregate a large number of merchants to come online and sell, we will participate in all the services that the merchant would need. For eg., fulfilment will be a service, payment will be a service, cataloguing will be a service, invoicing, billing, merchandizing, marketing, these are all services. So, our point of view was that you create an ecosystem of these services, provide this best class of the services to the merchant and let merchant decide how they will transact or how they will price the products, where they will sell, how they will they merchandize them all of this and enable them to do this. Our belief is and I think it has played out very nicely for us that your market which is so fragmented, where the consumer is so differentiated along the spectrum, market place becomes a very good, an asset like model that scales very nicely as opportunities in India becomes larger and larger.
And also look at it this way. We are a horizontal market, we are product agnostic, we are category agnostic, we are brand agnostic. One of the categories that I would give you a specific example, one of the categories that is very popular at Shopclues is home and kitchen. Now in the US, if you compare a kitchen in the New York with a kitchen in Austen with a kitchen in San Fransisco, or even with a kitchen in Alaska, you will find that 98% of the products are the same. Now, if I was a home and kitchen retailer operating out of the US, probably an inventory based model might work for me because there is this specifies number of inventory that I need to stock. Now, look at the fragmentation in India, where if you compare a kitchen in Srinagar with a kitchen in Delhi, with a kitchen in Mumbai, with a kitchen in Chennai, I can promise you that most of the products are different. The cooking, the utensils that are used, the way food is made, everything there is a significant significant difference. And as a retailer if I were to stock all the possible products that will be able to cater to the whole fragmented consumer set, that would require like massive massive capital. So, for us it just made sense inherently to bring more and more merchants online. Currently we have somewhere around 200,000 small and medium enterprises that are selling on the platform. And that results in the selection of more than 2 crore products. With an inventory based model, it is impossible to replicate that.
Impact of fast growing technology in the next 5-8 years
Shopclues is a technology company which is in the business of retail. We always thought that the problems are to be – if you have to solve a problem fundamentally, you have to bring the best of the technology to play. I will give you examples – Today, the uberization that has happened, there are these stalwarts in the industry world over – you have Airbnb, you have Ebay, you have Towbow, you have Uber, these companies have shown many times over that they have used technology in a manner that has given them the scale, a very high operating leverage in that business and I believe that any company – independent of whether it’s a market place or if it is not a market place, if technology is not brought to bear, I think very soon they will be obsolete or their business model would probably not be able to sustain. Like you asked me what would happen in the coming years, I think Airbnb has shown us that it is possible – Ebay and Airbnb have shown us- that it is possible to aggregate unstructured inventory in the e-commerce world in a manner where you can still maintain a very high level of trust. Uber has shown us that you can create an organized – you can create an organized system of transportation, where the providers are very fragmented. I think both of these players have shown beautifully how technology has been used in this thing. So, I believe as we go into the future, you will see that these technology will become table sticks and e-commerce will generally create huge amount of data and the next level of innovation is going to come from how well companies are able to use this amount of data to create information. So, you will see – and by the way, the most important would be the mobility is completely changing the dynamics of how people think, of course, mobility has it’s challenges, smaller screens, but it is also changing behaviour of the consumer and I think we have seen vey very dramatic change in consumer behaviour. I would give an example – About a year ago, our peak times of when people were shopping were during office time because you know that was the time when people would get access to internet, from 9am to let’s say 5pm, is when you would see most of the commerce activity happening, and during lunch hours, you will see a spike. That has changed. Now, we see commute hours becoming more of a shopping period – before 9 o’clock and after 5 o’clock, when people are actually either coming to work or going back to work. At midnight, if I can’t sleep if you are browsing something on your mobile phone. I think these are very important ecosystem changes that are happening. I think the organizations that are not able to leverage this will find it hard to compete.
Difficulties and failures while raising funds
That’s always a very good question to ask entrepreneurs, because when you read the papers you read you know 100 million dollars raised and 300 million dollars raised, but the amount of energy and more than that the amount of heart burn that goes into it is just incredible. It’s just unbelievable. You said that if there are any failed pitches – if any? If I remember – let me assure you for every successful pitch, there are probably 3000 failed pitches. So…
So, I think it’s an amazing point. I think I’ll just – that’s not exactly what you are asking but, I’ll just say all you need is one person to say yes, there is – be ready for hearing “No”. I mean see, an entrepreneur by definition is somebody who is trying to sell a vision. And they need believers. And not everybody would be a believer and by no means it is personal rejection of either your idea or you as a person. I think different people have different context in which they can or they cannot participate with you. But the fact is that is you believe in what you are trying to do, then you just chug along. Our pitch in all these rounds of funding were the same. Our vision was the same, the vision statement has never changed of what Shopclues is doing. You know how – what life cycle of the organization that we are in, the kind of money we are trying to raise obviously changes. But you know who we are, what we stand for has never changed. We don’t change our pitch because somebody would like this or that. That is unfair. It’s unfair to ourselves, it’s unfair to people who want to believe in the story. We want believers to be part of the journey. And it is almost stupid to think or foolish to think that everybody will buy your pitch. What happens you know is as we start raising money and people start believing the story, there’s a momentum that is built. And you get a certain amount of street credibility. As the organization has some history, what you say is possible, what you do you’ll – what you say you will do, all these are now measurable and I think that helps and so yes, our funding rounds were never easy, I don’t believe they are going to be easier in the future too, but we will continue to make the same pitches because that’s what we believe in.
I think that there are 2 things that an entrepreneur gets money for. One is execution or the vision or the business plan that’s under talked about, second is the competitive environment as well. And I know for us, that’s been one of the largest challenges. Our execution has been fairly impeccable if I may say so myself, so we’ve had got really good growth, we’ve done very well, we’ve built very strong teams. The competitive environment has been kind of brutal. Our competitors have raised a lot of money and there is this wall of cash, quote unquote, that we keep getting asked is this – how are we going to be able to fight against them. But the fact of the matter is that your execution at the end of the day is what wins. You cannot have a ‘me too’ model. It has to be a differentiated model. So for all the entrepreneurs out there, first thing you really need to believe in your vision, you need to believe in the plan that you are building and you need to be differentiated. It doesn’t matter if there are other players in the market, and the differentiation needs to be palpable. You just because my logo is blue vs. your’s being green, that’s not differentiation. I think for us the key differentiation is something that Sanjay talked about earlier. Who is the customer that we are going behind. We are going behind the mass market. We are going behind the tier 2 and the tier 3 customers. This is the true middle class of India. People making from 2 lacs to 9 lacs. How do we serve these customers – by getting in more and more unstructured products. And one of the things that I always asked my investors to do was to go out the street and talk to 10 people, and ask them how many of them are wearing branded clothes? India is truly not about branded clothes, and that’s the game that we are playing. We are playing – we are very big in fashion, in home and kitchen, fashion for us is very different from Myntra or Jabong. Fashion for us is about regional and local brands, brands that you have probably not heard of. If you live in Bombay, you haven’t heard of a brand in Delhi and if you live in Delhi, you haven’t heard of a brand in Bombay. We are very big in electronic accessories. So, unstructured category is very key for us. Now how you bring these categories to the consumers we are talking about, the only way to truly do that is not through an inventory based model, but through getting more and more merchants on board and there we have 200,000 merchants who come in with a selection of more than 2 crore products coming in. Just in fashion per say, we have over 30,000 merchants who are providing the selection to the customers. So, our differentiation if you look at these 3 buckets, is very clear, very palpable. And for the investors – having said that, do the investors always recognize it in the first look? Some of them do and for some of them, it just takes a while more, but hopefully, they come around as well.
I think I’ll also add to that. When you talk about differentiation, I think there is a visible differentiation what your position in the market is, I think that is definitely key. But then are fundamentals in the business also, you know how the division of the business is actually executed. Just to give you some comparative numbers, we raised a very large round like you mentioned about 4-5 months ago, but the entire Shopclues was created actually with about 30 million dollars in a period of 3 years and which is by factor of 10 to 20 lower than the comparative business that we see in India. I think that is a very important differentiator. It clicks. People understand that you’ve created a cost advantage. I mean an example would be Blockbuster and Hollywood studios in the US could not compete with the cost advantage that was created by Netflix. Even Walmart which is known for it’s cost advantage, the way that they operate their businesses, could not compete with Netflix. And I think that also is a very important differentiator that is slightly hidden from public view, but it is appreciated, it is very very important. Every business is in the business of making money and how effectively you can do that and how effectively you can demonstrate that you can do that I think is a very important thing too.
Mistakes and failures
The event was completely unanticipated. There was no preparation for that. In fact, I remember when we would go around and make our pitches, we would have key risks to the business and one of the key risk we would have is key man leaves and we thought that that was almost theoretical. Who runs into that situation? Capital is the most important thing, and we – for us that key man leaves actually happened. It was an unfortunate event, but in a situation like this, one of the two things either happen – either the teams come together and become closer and more determined to do something or they can just fall apart. We were lucky that for us, the former happened, where the other founding members of the organization came together much more closely. We believed in the vision, we knew that we could do it and I think it would be incorrect to say that it was not a disruption, something that we could have done without, but given the cards that we were played, I think our ability to bring the organization together, continue to have the same focus that we had and believe in the opportunity that we were trying to pursue, I think that held us together and today, we are here talking to you.
I think whenever anybody starts a business and we talk to a bunch of entrepreneurs and they come in like what is one of the most critical things while building a business – you need to have a very clear business plan, you need to have a very clear vision, and everything, but one of the things that is underestimated by most entrepreneurs is the team. No business can be a one man show. It’s always a team that runs the business. And I think for us that was the biggest biggest biggest strength and the biggest advantage that we had. We had a strong team that stuck by each other and worked well to get the business back up to speed and to stabilize it because the incident was a pretty significant one. But the fact is that the team – I think that just did – and you cannot undermine the team.
In 2013, one of our founders – one of our main founders actually exited the company under unanticipated circumstances.
3 significant failures
I think we should start with your failure first…
I think I have a bunch of them actually. So, for me this is my second entrepreneurial gig really. The first one was – I started a content portal for South Asian women which was based out of the US, and the first 8-9 months were great, very significant traction, very very bootstrapped, but doing well traffic from over 50 countries. The moment I stepped out in the market to raise money, it was not happening, very clear that the market – the numbers that most of the investors were looking at at that time, which was also 2009, when the market was dicey, which it gets every couple of years, I think that’s another thing that most of us need to remember is that good times don’t last, and it didn’t work. I would not raise money, and the same numbers, if I’d tried to raise in a better time, then I could have raised a significant amount of money. So timing was off for me. So that was one – it was a huge learning experience because the tricks of the trade that I learned in that have come up very handy at Shopclues, but it was sad as well because a lot of hard work had gone into it. The second thing that is also a funny thing when we started, when we came together to start Shopclues, we had the term sheet from one of the largest VCs in the world and a very significant amount term sheet. This was on the business plan, and on the team that had come together. All of us had quit our jobs and at the last minute, Amazon came up with a press release saying that they were going to enter India. I’m talking about 2011, mid of 2011, and our term sheet got withdrawn and this is when our families were planning on already moving – not planning on moving to India, containers were packed, jobs were gone and the money was gone. At that time, there were just 2 things to do – either you just take a step back, go grovelling back to your bosses and say please give us our jobs back because that money which we’d planned for Shopclues has not come through, and the other one was try and raise money. So our main founder – he raised money and we are here. It was significantly less, a smaller round but there were a couple of very very sleepless nights, very scary and we decided that we really wanted to do that. And finally, there hasn’t been a single round where things have gone as expected.
That’s because we expected something different…
No… I’m just expecting normal… It just never happens…
I think all rounds will be like that, I think future rounds also will be like that. About failure, I think I’ll just say that failure – and Radhika actually said it – she learned a lot. That is the point of view you have to have. “Failures” – they are the biggest teachers, but for me in Shopclues, I think we fail every day, it teaches us something and we try again. I think the moment you give up is actually when you fail. But, I think there’s a – for me, I actually try to get into an entrepreneurial setup in 2009 and it did not happen. Actually it did not even take off. It did not take off because I was not able to convince my family that we should all move to India and there was this fear, in fact, I was also a little fearful – should I do it, what if it doesn’t work and I think the framework that worked for me in 2011 was, I kind of boxed it into timelines, like Radhika said that bad times don’t last forever and actually good times also don’t last forever. The point is nothing lasts forever. And in 2011 what happened was we said okay, I’ll give myself 4 years to come to India and try out Shopclues. If it works, great, if it doesn’t work, I am actually going to get an MBA degree in real world. What is the worst that can happen? I will probably lose the same amount of money from my savings, which I would have paid any MBA college in the US and that frame of mind actually held me – This gave me lot of confidence, because my worst case scenario was covered and I was very comfortable with that. On my family side, for them it was not a permanent move – Oh my God if I move then what happens, you know, will we ever come back, and think they also time boxed it. If they don’t like it, then they can go back in 2 years. And I think that framework worked and what we are trying to do now is we keep into perspective that good times don’t last forever and so do bad ones. And that gives us lot of strength.
I think the culture for an organization – and we kind of define our culture in the organization, as you know the stories that we tell, the heroes that we hold high, I mean what we say day in and day out I think and the events that we appreciate that we want to inculcate, I think that kind of becomes the culture and I think, I have no other definition of culture. For us, our transparency and honesty has been the main thing. You walk around the organization, you will see glass doors, glass cabins, actually most of the people sitting, including the core leadership sits in cubes outside, in open… None of the doors are – none of the cupboards are locked, there are no locks in the organization and I think that’s a very important message that we want to tell or kind of percolate within the organization that transparency – we believe you, we trust you and you in turn will reciprocate that belief and trust. I mean there are nuances of these how we actually do it, but I think at the uber level, I would just say, you know good times bad times, you be honest. You know when we had these – you know there was a time when we ran out of money actually. And Radhika and I used our credit cards to run the company and we did not have money for the next payroll. We were definitely solid, we knew that we will be able to come out of this, we were not panicking, and we ensured that the organization doesn’t panic. That is not to say that we kind of misleading people about the graveness of the situation. It was basically being honest with them. You know you don’t have to go out, take a loud speaker and shout about it, but the key leadership needs to know where we stand. What needs to be done, why it needs to be done, and then you suddenly see this culture of openness comes up, there are ideas dime a dozen, but can you bet your life behind that idea, is important and if you can, and if you will, then we stand behind it. I think flat organizations, no offices in the organization, we are all out on the floor, open door policy literally because there are no doors to lock up and talk to anybody you want. One of the things that I feel very very strongly about is anybody who comes to work needs to come to work with their heart and not just their mind. You need to bring your passion, you need to bring your energy to work as well. And if this particular role is not working for you, that’s fine, come reach out to us and we will find a better place for you in the organization. You have to be a fit for the organization. Hiring philosophies in a lot of ways is that the – we don’t necessarily hire for the role, we hire you for the organization. You don’t have to come with a specific skill set that makes you a good marketing person or a good product person. You need to come with a skill set that makes you a good Shopclues person. And that is the basic philosophy. Have you – it doesn’t matter what college you went to, it doesn’t matter what business school you went to, what really matters is have you excelled in any one thing in life. Of course, if you went to an IIT there you’ve excelled in education itself. But it doesn’t matter if you have been to another school and you’ve excelled in – you’re an excellent chess player or you are an excellent chef, you have passion for something and you can bring that passion to work. And that’s a strong philosophy here.
I‘ll just add one more thing to this and of course, you can edit it out – basically one thing we specifically do, we follow the 4 T model, which is we give our teams autonomy for the time, autonomy for their task, autonomy for their teams and the techniques. Basically what it means is that the organization has flexibility in deciding what they want to do, when they want to do, with whom they want to do and how they want to do it. I think that creates lot of ownership in what the teams are actually trying to do, because if it is all top down this is what you need to do, this is when you need to do, this is how you have to do it, it takes – it becomes very mundane and I think that then people are not thinking. They are waiting for orders to come in and I think we are just trying to say you know here’s the problem, here is th group of people you can work with, figure out the best people on the table to do this, and one thing I keep telling my team all the time is that if you are not able to find a job in 15 days out of Shopclues, which pays you higher than Shopclues, then you are not eligible to work at Shopclues, which basically means that you have to be at the top of your game. Of course, people would want to hire you, of course they want you, but it is your choice that brings you to work every day.
Future of e-commerce
So, I will take a stab and Radhika please jump in – Just to put things in perspective, today e-commerce in India is about 2-3 %, maybe not even 3% of the entire retail. We’ve barely scratched the surface. India is the last largest e-commerce market in the world and this e-commerce story is going to be played out not for 3 years, 5 years, you are not talking about 15 years, It is not a fashion, it is not a fad that has come in and tomorrow something else will come and people will do that. It’s a fundamental behavioural change. I don’t believe in 1990’s – early 1990’s, when were introduced to the touch pad phones and later we got these mobile phones, it was a behavioural change. People started using cellular phones, wireless phones to communicate and it would have been odd to ask how long this will last, this will last forever. There’s no way we are going back to our rotator phones and digital phones. Similarly – it is not a fad… E-commerce way of buying will continue to be – it’s a behavioural change. It will continue to be there. That being said, I think the forms that it will take in next 3-5 years is going to be very different. I think there’s this concept of winner is going to take it all. There will be one large organization that will completely cover the entire spectrum of e-commerce in a country. I think that is very flawed. The notable exception is China, but, if you look at the US. In the commerce business, in the retail business, you have Walmart, you have Macy’s, you have Target, you have Nordstrom, you have Neiman Marcus and I can rattle off another 15 of them. They are all multi-billion dollar companies. And they all have their niches in the market. Similarly India which is even more differentiated and more fragmented as a consumer base than most of the west, it is impossible to envisage a world where you would think that one company, one organization can cater to the entire spectrum of the user. So, what you will see in the next 3-5 years is verticalization of these platforms. People will have to take their positions, they will have to create a brand, what they stand for. And by definition, if you create a brand you stand for something, which means, you don’t stand for many other things, and that becomes the opportunity for entrepreneurs to create their own niches in the market. Mobility will definitely and very dramatically change how consumers and organizations will interact with each other. In last 2-3 years, what we have done is we have taken merchants form local area and given them national reach. I think in the coming years, what you’ll see that Shopclues and industry in general will enable local commerce more effectively, because there is huge amount of technical innovation that is happened. Mobility is a very good example and just the mind set of consumer is changing. Making merchants more effective in their local areas will become a very important trend that I think – I believe very strongly the next 2,3 years will bring lot of focus where the demarcation between online commerce and offline commerce will gradually fade away and you will just see an emergence of commerce and that commerce by definition will mean – there will be verticalization of brands. You will see Walmarts of India, you will see Targets of India, you will see Macy’s of India, you will see Neiman Marcus’s of India and I think we all as players in this ecosystem will have to take our positions.
What do you think of internet of things? Will I be able to order stuff from my fridge?
Of course you will. Why not?
I think that’s what I’m most excited about.
I think internet things is interesting, right now we are taking internet to things, I think what you will see is you will take things to internet. A slight – I know I play on words – but I think it’s a very fundamental mindset change. The mobile phone today is your wallet, it’s your communication device, it’s your personal assistant, it’s your camera, it is your video, it is your window into the social network, and I think that- bringing all of these things into – basically the definitions are changing, the lines are blurring and I think that trend is going to continue and we are – like omni channel is a popular keyword- I think it’s more important from taglines and jargons, buzzwords and jargons, it is very important to understand the basic concept. The concept is that technology is there. People will find this blurring of lines between online, offline, social and stuff.
One advice for women entrepreneurs
Oh, I always get asked that question.
Nobody asked me that question.
Nobody asked me that question? Now can you ask him that question too. He might have more advice than I do. He is a fair adviser to me. But, I think women Nobody asked me that question continue to face some of the challenges that have not changed in multiple multiple years. You need to have a very strong support system and sometimes, you just need to dig your heels in and say that this is what I want to do and this is what I am going to do and I think that the basic advices is not any different for a woman entrepreneur than it is for other entrepreneurs as well. Be sure about what you are trying to do, don’t be afraid to make mistakes, if you do make mistakes change the path that you are walking on and walk with the right people. I think for me, I continue to be a very very strong believer in the team. That is the most critical part. That is your team at home or it is your team at work.